BH Roberts on Plato and the Apostasy

By March 30, 2025

I want to finish my train of thought that Mormons claiming Greek philosophy was central to the apostasy is problematic. Again, this was a common Protestant claim, and I argue that Joseph Smith knew of the claim and rejected it, seeking to embrace the “ancient theology” instead.

I once saw a video of Mormon thinkers attributing the embraced of the Platonic-corruption idea to B H. Roberts’s Outlines of Ecclesiastical History (1893), so this post takes a look at what Roberts said on the topic. I argue that Robert’s statements inadvertently highlight the problems with the claim of linking Greek philosophy to the corruption of Christianity.

Roberts lists out a number of points he got from Protestant historians including Johann Lorentz von Mosheim, whose very influential history of Christianity Joseph Smith also owned.

What’s curious is that before Roberts makes the claim the Greek philosophy was responsible for Christians claiming God didn’t have a body, he cited passages indicating Platonic philosophers with some rather Mormon sounding ideas.

Point 23 on page 190: “The New Platonic Philosophy:–The Eclectic or ‘New Platonic’ philosophy came into existence in the early Christian centuries…. The founders of this philosophy professed simply to follow truth, gathering up whatever was accordant with it, regardless of its source, or in what school it was taught—hence the name eclectic.  Still the teachings of Plato formed the basis of their doctrines, and they embraced most of his dogmas concerning God, the human soul and the universe.” 

This passage comes from Mosheim and Joseph Smith declared “The First Fundamental principal of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men.”  Joseph Smith, letter to Isaac Galland, March 22, 1839.

As I’ve noted, Mormonism has a lot of Platonic doctrine, especially the plan of salvation (chapter six of my dissertation).

The next point that Roberts notes is even more peculiar. #24: “Plato held that God and matter existed from all eternity—that they were co-eternal.  Before the creation of the world matter had in itself a principle of motion, but without end or laws…. God wished to give form to this mass of eternal matter, regulate its motion subject it so some end and to certain laws.”

As I noted in this video, Plato, like all ancient thinkers, had God creating out of something and that creation ex nihilo was a an attempt to make the Christian God different than Plato’s creator.

These two points Roberts makes are curious as they seem to call into question the claim that Platonic doctrines corrupted Christianity. Here Mormonism and Platonism agree.

On page 195 Roberts claims that “The evil which grew out of these contentions in respect to Deity is found in the conclusion arrived at that God is an incorporeal, that is to say, an immaterial being.” 

I’ve argued that God’s corporality isn’t that clear in the NT, so it seems to me that asserting that claims of God’s immateriality happened AFTER the NT seem problematic. As I note in the video, Professor John Smith claimed that the ancient theology promoted an embodied God like Stoicism.

So I would argue that Roberts’s claims highlight the problems of the Protestant claim that Plato corrupted Christianity.

Article filed under Miscellaneous


  1. “I’ve argued that God’s corporality isn’t that clear in the NT, so it seems to me that asserting that claims of God’s immateriality happened AFTER the NT seem problematic.”

    Maybe I’m not understanding you–but we do have Nephi making it clear that “plain and precious” doctrines were removed *after* those texts go through the hands of the Great and Abominable and Abominable church.

    So are you, perhaps, suggesting that the removal of such truths happened sooner than we generally believe? Which (timing) serves as good evidence as to why it was probably not Greek influence that was the cause of the change in the doctrine?

    Comment by Jack — March 31, 2025 @ 4:00 am

  2. In the intro to DC 76 in JS’s 1838 history, JS said, “From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled.” It’s in the current heading to DC 76.

    Some truth was lost BEFORE it ever made it into the Bible, and as I noted in previous posts, DC 76 matches the structure of the afterlife in Plato’s PHAEDO. That suggests to me that JS saw Plato as truth that was either removed before or after the Bible was compiled.

    His larger purpose, the evidence indicates to me, was to restore the lost truths of the ancient theology. I think BH Roberts and many others have been mistaken to argue that God’s body was the MAIN issue. The plan of salvation like DC 76 (PHAEDO) and Abraham 3 (TIMAEUS) was the much more central issue.

    Comment by Steve Fleming — March 31, 2025 @ 8:08 am

  3. Thanks for your insights–you’ve really got me thinking.

    I can’t get away from the notion that the formation of the Great and Abominable church was an inside job–a combination, if you will, that happened pretty early on. And if so, what the “Hellenization of Christianity” may have really been is the GABC transforming the temple rites into something that looked like a respectable school–a system that was based on credentialism rather than priesthood keys and authority.

    Don’t know if I’ve got it right–but there it is. It may not have been the Greeks who removed the “plain and precious” doctrines–but the church (the temple really) looked very Greek after the GABC had transformed it.

    Comment by Jack — March 31, 2025 @ 3:42 pm

  4. Interesting, Jack. But just to reiterate, I think JS saw the SUPPRESSION of Platonic ideas as creating the loss of truth and not the addition. Here’s a couple of old posts from the introduction to my dissertation. Excuse the ? for “.

    https://juvenileinstructor.org/dissertation-introduction-part-4-plato-and-the-apostasy/

    https://juvenileinstructor.org/dissertation-introduction-part-3-the-alexandrians/

    Comment by Steve Fleming — March 31, 2025 @ 8:24 pm


Leave a Comment

Series

Recent Comments

Steve Fleming on BH Roberts on Plato: “Interesting, Jack. But just to reiterate, I think JS saw the SUPPRESSION of Platonic ideas as creating the loss of truth and not the addition.…”


Jack on BH Roberts on Plato: “Thanks for your insights--you've really got me thinking. I can't get away from the notion that the formation of the Great and Abominable church was an…”


Steve Fleming on BH Roberts on Plato: “In the intro to DC 76 in JS's 1838 history, JS said, "From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important…”


Jack on BH Roberts on Plato: “"I’ve argued that God’s corporality isn’t that clear in the NT, so it seems to me that asserting that claims of God’s immateriality happened AFTER…”


Steve Fleming on Study and Faith, 5:: “The burden of proof is on the claim of there BEING Nephites. From a scholarly point of view, the burden of proof is on the…”


Eric on Study and Faith, 5:: “But that's not what I was saying about the nature of evidence of an unknown civilization. I am talking about linguistics, not ruins. …”

Topics


juvenileinstructor.org